What drives me up the wall about people who pick apart Genesis 2 to try to justify the subordination of women is that they completely miss the big picture—the beauty of harmony and wholeness when everything is working according to God’s original intent. Not to mention the stupidity of the “Levitical priests are now pastors” argument. Glad you pointed out the inconsistencies there. Sigh, sigh, sigh. Thanks for continuing to speak up for your sisters!
Exactly; it is such a beautiful picture of mutuality and, as you say, harmony and wholeness. And you're welcome! This is an issue of biblical fidelity and it is also an issue of justice for me.
Thanks for this, Bobby. That Rigney quote is something else. The idea that someone could effectively lead a church without care and compassion is such a weird take (though not surprising).
You’re welcome, Libby! Yeah, the Rigney quote is so bad. And it’s damning that Mohler just sat there, giving visual cues that he agreed and then adding to Rigney’s opinion (kind of like when he sat next to Paul Pressler when Pressler said, “It was like Gettysburg but this time the right side won,” and Mohler refused to condemn it).
This was a great post! I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian who grew up in a fairly fundamentalist leaning Evangelicalism and appreciate a lot of what you write. 5-10 years ago I would have said that despite its patriarchal hierarchy, the Orthodox Church feels less patriarchal in its view of women than I experienced in Evangelicalism, but at the moment we too are experiencing the impact of the manosphere and [everything happening in the world right now], and in some circles that is really colouring how women are treated and viewed. So I've appreciated your posts, they help me make sense not only of what I experienced in my past but also be vigilant for how these attitudes creep into Orthodoxy.
Anyway I don't know how familiar you are with patristic theology, but St. Basil in particular has a few discourses/homilies on the origins of humanity in which he occasionally raises similar points that you explore here. (They are harder to find and not usually included with his more well known Hexaemeron sermons.) I really like the translation by Nonna Verna Harrison (On the Human Condition).
Thanks, Nicole! The only thing I've ever read by St. Basil is "On the Holy Spirit." I'm more familiar with his sister Macrina, whom I discovered as part of my studies on the question of women in ministry - she was an amazing woman. I'll check out Basil's work!
"They" are in the image of God - I often think the reason He made us binary is that we can't "image" Him alone - it's ONLY together and in community. Thanks for this - I grew up in a church that didn't affirm women's roles in the priesthood, and it's taken a while to untangle all that. .... I could also even see regarding Leviticus, that God didn't want His people to get caught up in the sex worship that surrounded them and barring women could prevent fertility/etc. from being seen as an appropriate form of worship.
Yeah, I think the ANE sex/fertility cult stuff probably played a role, too. I like the thought of imaging God in community just as God is trinitarian community!
I don't believe we know each other, but looking through your Substack, I would guess we will not agree on this or much of anything. Your questions are good ones, though, and I had planned to deal with each of them in separate articles down the road, with extended treatments of counter-arguments. So, for now, I'll say, in brief, that there were certainly not zero women apostles because one, Junia, is explicitly named in Romans 16:7.
Second, Jesus chose twelve male disciples to foreshadow the restoration of Israel via his ministry. These twelve men symbolize the twelve ancient tribes (Num. 1:4-16), descended from the sons of Jacob (whose name God had changed to “Israel”). Thus, they represent the twelve Old Testament patriarchs of Israel (making the illustration that Jesus was the new Israel). I will have much more to say about this and about the twelve in relation to women in the Gospels and New Testament in the months to come. Thanks for reading.
It seems to me all the critical roles women play as disciples, and all disciples should teach and preach, which we see women doing, undercuts the 12 apostles were all men and supports your position.
Just one example. The woman at the well and her evangelistic role.
The critical role we all play, or should, in the kingdom, is leading people to Christ. Why would women be cut off from that calling? Is there anything less important?
Clearly Christ entrusted his kingdom to both men and women.
Thanks for your response. I do feel as if you have not answered my question though. Choosing 12 apostles does indeed relate to the 12 tribes, but that doesn’t explain why he chose 12 men.
And even if Junia was an apostle (I don’t agree that she was or that it is as clear as you say it is from Rom 16) that would still not answer the question of why Jesus chose twelve men.
So I suppose I’ll wait for your future writing on the subject!
The 12 male disciples correspond to the 12 patriarchs of the 12 tribes. This is why the 12 are men. When Jesus rolls into town with 12 men, it evokes Israel (Jacob) with Judah, Reuben, Simeon, etc.
The ESV translation says something very different from most translations. It's a variant reading based on their theological position. I'll get into the grammar and other issues with Junia in a future post. For now, I'm sure the readers can look up Romans 16:7 in translations they trust and draw conclusions. Thanks, Jon.
Romans 16:7 (ESV) Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
Bobby, wonderful article. I am continually frustrated by people’s logical inconsistencies often used when exegeting scripture, but yours was very well reasoned and just makes sense. (I was recently researching John MacArthur’s views and discovered that he claims there were no female prophets with “ongoing” ministries in scripture, which is an argument from omission. He believes it isn’t a thing because the Bible never specifies the length of time that the female prophets received words from the lord?? Not a logical stance. And funnily enough is the same device he uses to justify his cessationism🤦♀️). All that to say, this was a breath of fresh air!! I am thankful for your articles and understand the heartache and difficulty it took for you to get here. Can’t wait for the next one.
Thanks Bobby. Great article. I enjoy listening to a podcast called Voxology. Mike Erre did an excellent series on this topic. He took about 20 podcasts just on Genesis 1-3 alone the series was To Be Human and highlighted the priesthood of both Eve and Adam and their rule “Together.” Since I first read John Walton’s book “the lost world” the whole Genesis story has taken on new meaning. It makes so much more sense. I look forward to more of your teachings on this.
I wonder if women were not to be priests also because of childbearing and the issue of blood that would have flowed on a regular basis. They would have been considered unclean according to Levitical law?
Yeah, that probably had something to do with it too. There were so many reasons why someone could have been considered unclean (men too, but more often women). One of these days I'm going to write about the clean/unclean dichotomy and the Levitical rituals. I think "Jesus and the Forces of Death" by Matt Thiessen is a fascinating take on this subject.
I think the 12 male apostles argument falls short also in that it is not FULLY applied as an example. The focal point is always ONLY on the gender. Don’t forget they were all only Jews also. (And free people for that matter) If that is our governing principle we have to apply those aspect also. Guess I can’t be ordained because I have no Jewish heritage.
I also know of no NT scriptural passage that directly, explicitly links the elder/leader to the priesthood. So it is an interpretative stretch to draw that connection. It wasn’t like the NT authors were NOT well versed in those images and examples.
One interesting example that shows maybe a larger steering away from priestly examples was when Paul writes that you should pay your elders that teach. In 1 Timothy 5:17-18 he grabs, for his analogy, and OT law about not muzzling an ox. We have PLENTY of OT references of the priests receiving various gifts and tithes to support them. Yet, Paul chose one not related to the priesthood at all, interesting!
We forget that Genesis was not written in English by a 21st century western theologian. Read a commentary by a Jewish believer. From Israel Bible centre magazine. The topic, how is Eve a helper? By Dr. Nicholas Schaser.
"Traditionally genesis 2 verse 18 has led non-Hebrew readers to assume that Eve (and all women after her) was created as a subordinate assistant to her husband. However, this is not what the original Hebrew means. Instead of being a term of mere assistance or relational inferiority the word helper, EZER, is a term of power and authority that signifies a heavenly ability to protect and save those in need… According to Genesis, women are not inferior or to men, but rather possessive of requisite, redemptive power within God given relationships"
You put into words so much better than I could ever. I agree wholeheartedly, and glad you brought up Paul. It seems those that stand firm that only Men can teach and lead always use his letters to the churches about forbidding women to lead/teach men, but they're overlooking the fact Paul also says we are not to take part in Feast days/worldly pagan holidays for modern. They ONLY reason Paul took part in his day in the Feast's was because the Jews that didn't accept Jesus were and he partook to be close and talk to them about the Messiah.
Great article! It seems like a well thought and nuanced take. I like that you affirmed the equal value of men and women while also acknowledging the fundamental differences and their implications. While your argument is solid for the passages of scripture you mention, I would love to hear about the passages in Paul’s epistles that prohibit women from holding certain positions of authority, and whether you think that these commands are limited by time and culture or apply more broadly.
What drives me up the wall about people who pick apart Genesis 2 to try to justify the subordination of women is that they completely miss the big picture—the beauty of harmony and wholeness when everything is working according to God’s original intent. Not to mention the stupidity of the “Levitical priests are now pastors” argument. Glad you pointed out the inconsistencies there. Sigh, sigh, sigh. Thanks for continuing to speak up for your sisters!
Exactly; it is such a beautiful picture of mutuality and, as you say, harmony and wholeness. And you're welcome! This is an issue of biblical fidelity and it is also an issue of justice for me.
Amen. And I promise I’m not trying to win “most comments” award on your posts. You just write a lot of things that get me fired up. 😁
Thanks for this, Bobby. That Rigney quote is something else. The idea that someone could effectively lead a church without care and compassion is such a weird take (though not surprising).
You’re welcome, Libby! Yeah, the Rigney quote is so bad. And it’s damning that Mohler just sat there, giving visual cues that he agreed and then adding to Rigney’s opinion (kind of like when he sat next to Paul Pressler when Pressler said, “It was like Gettysburg but this time the right side won,” and Mohler refused to condemn it).
Absolutely. Very slimy.
This was a great post! I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian who grew up in a fairly fundamentalist leaning Evangelicalism and appreciate a lot of what you write. 5-10 years ago I would have said that despite its patriarchal hierarchy, the Orthodox Church feels less patriarchal in its view of women than I experienced in Evangelicalism, but at the moment we too are experiencing the impact of the manosphere and [everything happening in the world right now], and in some circles that is really colouring how women are treated and viewed. So I've appreciated your posts, they help me make sense not only of what I experienced in my past but also be vigilant for how these attitudes creep into Orthodoxy.
Anyway I don't know how familiar you are with patristic theology, but St. Basil in particular has a few discourses/homilies on the origins of humanity in which he occasionally raises similar points that you explore here. (They are harder to find and not usually included with his more well known Hexaemeron sermons.) I really like the translation by Nonna Verna Harrison (On the Human Condition).
Thanks, Nicole! The only thing I've ever read by St. Basil is "On the Holy Spirit." I'm more familiar with his sister Macrina, whom I discovered as part of my studies on the question of women in ministry - she was an amazing woman. I'll check out Basil's work!
St macrina is indeed amazing! I dm'ed you a quote from that book I was thinking of
"They" are in the image of God - I often think the reason He made us binary is that we can't "image" Him alone - it's ONLY together and in community. Thanks for this - I grew up in a church that didn't affirm women's roles in the priesthood, and it's taken a while to untangle all that. .... I could also even see regarding Leviticus, that God didn't want His people to get caught up in the sex worship that surrounded them and barring women could prevent fertility/etc. from being seen as an appropriate form of worship.
Yeah, I think the ANE sex/fertility cult stuff probably played a role, too. I like the thought of imaging God in community just as God is trinitarian community!
Excellent!
Thank you, April!
I can’t tell you how much I (a) enjoyed reading this and (b) learned reading this. It is rich with reason and wisdom! Thank you!!
You're welcome - that means a lot to me!
What’s your explanation for why Christ chose 12 men, whom he knew would be the future leaders of the church, and 0 women to be apostles?
Hi Jon,
I don't believe we know each other, but looking through your Substack, I would guess we will not agree on this or much of anything. Your questions are good ones, though, and I had planned to deal with each of them in separate articles down the road, with extended treatments of counter-arguments. So, for now, I'll say, in brief, that there were certainly not zero women apostles because one, Junia, is explicitly named in Romans 16:7.
Second, Jesus chose twelve male disciples to foreshadow the restoration of Israel via his ministry. These twelve men symbolize the twelve ancient tribes (Num. 1:4-16), descended from the sons of Jacob (whose name God had changed to “Israel”). Thus, they represent the twelve Old Testament patriarchs of Israel (making the illustration that Jesus was the new Israel). I will have much more to say about this and about the twelve in relation to women in the Gospels and New Testament in the months to come. Thanks for reading.
It seems to me all the critical roles women play as disciples, and all disciples should teach and preach, which we see women doing, undercuts the 12 apostles were all men and supports your position.
Just one example. The woman at the well and her evangelistic role.
The critical role we all play, or should, in the kingdom, is leading people to Christ. Why would women be cut off from that calling? Is there anything less important?
Clearly Christ entrusted his kingdom to both men and women.
I agree. Thank you, Howard!
Thanks for your response. I do feel as if you have not answered my question though. Choosing 12 apostles does indeed relate to the 12 tribes, but that doesn’t explain why he chose 12 men.
And even if Junia was an apostle (I don’t agree that she was or that it is as clear as you say it is from Rom 16) that would still not answer the question of why Jesus chose twelve men.
So I suppose I’ll wait for your future writing on the subject!
The 12 male disciples correspond to the 12 patriarchs of the 12 tribes. This is why the 12 are men. When Jesus rolls into town with 12 men, it evokes Israel (Jacob) with Judah, Reuben, Simeon, etc.
The ESV translation says something very different from most translations. It's a variant reading based on their theological position. I'll get into the grammar and other issues with Junia in a future post. For now, I'm sure the readers can look up Romans 16:7 in translations they trust and draw conclusions. Thanks, Jon.
For anyone wondering about the verse referenced
Romans 16:7 (ESV) Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
Bobby, wonderful article. I am continually frustrated by people’s logical inconsistencies often used when exegeting scripture, but yours was very well reasoned and just makes sense. (I was recently researching John MacArthur’s views and discovered that he claims there were no female prophets with “ongoing” ministries in scripture, which is an argument from omission. He believes it isn’t a thing because the Bible never specifies the length of time that the female prophets received words from the lord?? Not a logical stance. And funnily enough is the same device he uses to justify his cessationism🤦♀️). All that to say, this was a breath of fresh air!! I am thankful for your articles and understand the heartache and difficulty it took for you to get here. Can’t wait for the next one.
Thank you so much, Kathryn!
Thanks Bobby. Great article. I enjoy listening to a podcast called Voxology. Mike Erre did an excellent series on this topic. He took about 20 podcasts just on Genesis 1-3 alone the series was To Be Human and highlighted the priesthood of both Eve and Adam and their rule “Together.” Since I first read John Walton’s book “the lost world” the whole Genesis story has taken on new meaning. It makes so much more sense. I look forward to more of your teachings on this.
You're welcome, Janet, and thanks for the encouragement! John Walton's work is fascinating. I'll have to check out Voxology.
I wonder if women were not to be priests also because of childbearing and the issue of blood that would have flowed on a regular basis. They would have been considered unclean according to Levitical law?
Yeah, that probably had something to do with it too. There were so many reasons why someone could have been considered unclean (men too, but more often women). One of these days I'm going to write about the clean/unclean dichotomy and the Levitical rituals. I think "Jesus and the Forces of Death" by Matt Thiessen is a fascinating take on this subject.
I think the 12 male apostles argument falls short also in that it is not FULLY applied as an example. The focal point is always ONLY on the gender. Don’t forget they were all only Jews also. (And free people for that matter) If that is our governing principle we have to apply those aspect also. Guess I can’t be ordained because I have no Jewish heritage.
I also know of no NT scriptural passage that directly, explicitly links the elder/leader to the priesthood. So it is an interpretative stretch to draw that connection. It wasn’t like the NT authors were NOT well versed in those images and examples.
One interesting example that shows maybe a larger steering away from priestly examples was when Paul writes that you should pay your elders that teach. In 1 Timothy 5:17-18 he grabs, for his analogy, and OT law about not muzzling an ox. We have PLENTY of OT references of the priests receiving various gifts and tithes to support them. Yet, Paul chose one not related to the priesthood at all, interesting!
Great article Bobby!!!
This is really helpful, thank you. There's a lot of really damaging lies out there.
You're welcome, Hallie! I'm so glad it was helpful.
I love the scholarship here. Seeing the NT passages in this context is illuminating and seems a strong argument against “women can be pastors.”
We forget that Genesis was not written in English by a 21st century western theologian. Read a commentary by a Jewish believer. From Israel Bible centre magazine. The topic, how is Eve a helper? By Dr. Nicholas Schaser.
"Traditionally genesis 2 verse 18 has led non-Hebrew readers to assume that Eve (and all women after her) was created as a subordinate assistant to her husband. However, this is not what the original Hebrew means. Instead of being a term of mere assistance or relational inferiority the word helper, EZER, is a term of power and authority that signifies a heavenly ability to protect and save those in need… According to Genesis, women are not inferior or to men, but rather possessive of requisite, redemptive power within God given relationships"
Yep! Most often in the Hebrew Scriptures “ezer” is applied to God, the helper of Israel.
You put into words so much better than I could ever. I agree wholeheartedly, and glad you brought up Paul. It seems those that stand firm that only Men can teach and lead always use his letters to the churches about forbidding women to lead/teach men, but they're overlooking the fact Paul also says we are not to take part in Feast days/worldly pagan holidays for modern. They ONLY reason Paul took part in his day in the Feast's was because the Jews that didn't accept Jesus were and he partook to be close and talk to them about the Messiah.
Great article! It seems like a well thought and nuanced take. I like that you affirmed the equal value of men and women while also acknowledging the fundamental differences and their implications. While your argument is solid for the passages of scripture you mention, I would love to hear about the passages in Paul’s epistles that prohibit women from holding certain positions of authority, and whether you think that these commands are limited by time and culture or apply more broadly.
Thanks, Carolyn! Good questions. I have written several articles about the prohibition passage of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 --
https://bobbygilles.substack.com/p/garrrrr-does-1-timothy-2-establish
https://bobbygilles.substack.com/p/why-1-timothy-2-isnt-focused-on-a
https://bobbygilles.substack.com/p/what-if-1-timothy-2-is-about-marriage
https://bobbygilles.substack.com/p/answering-objections-to-seeing-1
https://bobbygilles.substack.com/p/questions-that-must-be-answered-if
I've also written another one on the "created order" argument from Genesis 1:3 here:
https://bobbygilles.substack.com/p/does-adams-creation-before-eve-put
And articles on "headship" in marriage from the 1 Peter 3 article here:
https://bobbygilles.substack.com/p/when-a-literal-reading-of-scripture
And Ephesians 5 here:
https://bobbygilles.substack.com/p/man-is-head-except-in-bed-pauls-headship