“The earlier women shook off all of these and cast away worldly vanity and sought one thing: how they might become partners of the apostles and share the same pursuit.” This!
Thank you for this illuminating piece on women in ministry. Your analysis of Priscilla's role is compelling. I'm so happy when these aspects are foregrounded.
Now, with regard to the naming order, this is probably the silliest question you'll get on this piece, but it popped into my mind as I read this article. In gendered languages with different vowel patterns than English (I'm thinking mainly of Spanish, and to some extent my now very rusty Hebrew), word order can sometimes be heavily influenced by euphony and cacophony. For instance, in Spanish, name ordering might be adjusted because certain combinations sound more natural than others. I wonder if similar phonetic considerations might have played any role in the Greek text's name ordering?
That's very interesting and a good question. Offhand, I would say no, although I could be wrong. I've studied the naming convention (of husbands and wives) a lot and have never read that argument in conjunction with that. Also, in my knowledge of Greek (only intermediate), I've never run across this. I think that more to the point than what they might have typically done with words (in terms of sounds) would be that these aren't just any two words but the names of husbands and wives. Because it was a patriarchal culture, they wanted to give honor to the man unless the woman was simply of higher station or more prominent in some way.
Thanks for your kind and attentive remarks to such a basic comment on my part. It's hard to convey how much a part phonetic considerations play in Spanish; something like "asks skeptically," which sounds normal in English, I remember a Spanish speaker describing as pure mayhem because of its "cacophony."
So as I was reading your obviously more significant point about male-female relationships, that question about phonetics came up. I just rummaged around NT-time Greek literature and found the novel "Leucippe and Clitophon," in which the woman is mentioned first, but that may mean little in the end. Your point about how convention-shattering the NT was in its time is my takeaway from reading your piece. Thank you!
Yeah, that's a wacky novel, sort of like an Ephesian Tale by Xenophon. The agency and power of Leucippe is tricky. She has a kind of power over Clitophon and other male characters due to her beauty, and she demonstrates more agency in her speech than a lot of other women had in ancient documents but ultimately, it's still a misogynist work and her power is limited. On the whole, it seems to me like the Greeks and Romans were more willing to find fictional women and goddesses worthy subjects for books and other writings than real world women.
Very insightful! Thanks for that. And it does seem easier to change things on a page than in the world of flesh and bone. Thanks for taking the time to respond to all this.
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your snarky writing. I found myself laughing outloud at multiple points. Your layout "women named first among famous Bible couples" was particularly compelling and demonstrates the pattern clearly. Keep up the good work!
I find it so fascinating how people find the seemingly most hidden insignificant things in scripture and bring out the significance of it. This was great Bobby. I so desire to dig deeper into the culture of the people of the Bible and learn how they lived “according to scripture” I’ve grown up in southern conservative evangelism and now in my 60s, I’m just now learning little snippets like this that make so much more sense to me than three points and an application. I look forward to continuing to learn more of your studies
“The earlier women shook off all of these and cast away worldly vanity and sought one thing: how they might become partners of the apostles and share the same pursuit.” This!
Yeah, that is still a great aspiration for all of us!
Thank you for this illuminating piece on women in ministry. Your analysis of Priscilla's role is compelling. I'm so happy when these aspects are foregrounded.
Now, with regard to the naming order, this is probably the silliest question you'll get on this piece, but it popped into my mind as I read this article. In gendered languages with different vowel patterns than English (I'm thinking mainly of Spanish, and to some extent my now very rusty Hebrew), word order can sometimes be heavily influenced by euphony and cacophony. For instance, in Spanish, name ordering might be adjusted because certain combinations sound more natural than others. I wonder if similar phonetic considerations might have played any role in the Greek text's name ordering?
That's very interesting and a good question. Offhand, I would say no, although I could be wrong. I've studied the naming convention (of husbands and wives) a lot and have never read that argument in conjunction with that. Also, in my knowledge of Greek (only intermediate), I've never run across this. I think that more to the point than what they might have typically done with words (in terms of sounds) would be that these aren't just any two words but the names of husbands and wives. Because it was a patriarchal culture, they wanted to give honor to the man unless the woman was simply of higher station or more prominent in some way.
Thanks for your kind and attentive remarks to such a basic comment on my part. It's hard to convey how much a part phonetic considerations play in Spanish; something like "asks skeptically," which sounds normal in English, I remember a Spanish speaker describing as pure mayhem because of its "cacophony."
So as I was reading your obviously more significant point about male-female relationships, that question about phonetics came up. I just rummaged around NT-time Greek literature and found the novel "Leucippe and Clitophon," in which the woman is mentioned first, but that may mean little in the end. Your point about how convention-shattering the NT was in its time is my takeaway from reading your piece. Thank you!
Yeah, that's a wacky novel, sort of like an Ephesian Tale by Xenophon. The agency and power of Leucippe is tricky. She has a kind of power over Clitophon and other male characters due to her beauty, and she demonstrates more agency in her speech than a lot of other women had in ancient documents but ultimately, it's still a misogynist work and her power is limited. On the whole, it seems to me like the Greeks and Romans were more willing to find fictional women and goddesses worthy subjects for books and other writings than real world women.
Very insightful! Thanks for that. And it does seem easier to change things on a page than in the world of flesh and bone. Thanks for taking the time to respond to all this.
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your snarky writing. I found myself laughing outloud at multiple points. Your layout "women named first among famous Bible couples" was particularly compelling and demonstrates the pattern clearly. Keep up the good work!
Thanks; that means a lot to me!
I find it so fascinating how people find the seemingly most hidden insignificant things in scripture and bring out the significance of it. This was great Bobby. I so desire to dig deeper into the culture of the people of the Bible and learn how they lived “according to scripture” I’ve grown up in southern conservative evangelism and now in my 60s, I’m just now learning little snippets like this that make so much more sense to me than three points and an application. I look forward to continuing to learn more of your studies
Thank you, Janet! I also find it fascinating how much we can learn and how much deeper we can go, even after spending years within the church.